Right To Vape

I'm worried about our fellow comrads ingesting so much nicotine. People are just dripping 36mg and vaping per shot. Can anyone really fathom the idea of running out or the withdraw effects of such a high intensity grade? I don't think that I even want to know what can happen. It sounds so dangerous and I wish people would acknowledge what exactly they're doing. I know Kate had a Great post on the whole issue,, but alot of people are still unaware. I think we should make it a sticky on the forums.
 I really dont want anyone to get hurt in general, but if someone does, it can have devastating effect on e-cigs in general. I think its only a matter of time before we're reading something terrible in the news and the whole idea of a better alternative will be banned. Because those high contents are pretty much what can ignorant activists an advantage over us.
 Too much of anything in this world can be very Bad for you! 

Hi Iken, it's nice to see you here

I agree that we should be careful with nicotine.  We should educate ourselves and treat it with care and respect.  Right to Vape has some information about nicotine here - http://www.righttovape.com/index.php?page=16

Luckily, it's probably nowhere near as harmful if we vape and use it carefully as the smoke we inhale when burning tobacco to get it.  As smokers/ex smokers we are used to health warnings and scares and we are also used to living in denial of the consequences of taking drugs.

As vaping ambassadors we are the ones who will be used as examples and hopefully we will be found to be responsible users.

Yes I have noticed this myself, people are taking a lot of nicotine, I think this is in part due to the lack of harmine in the e-liquid, harmine "increases" the effects of nicotine, harmine is a quimical in the tobacco, but is not present in the e-liquid, some people are interested on drink tea of passion flower (which contains harmine) while vaping, we need to keep an eye on those who are experimenting with this, because this way we can get a viable nicotine intake reduction just by drinking tea.

Always a pleasure Kate Ahh you found it! Never short of amazing hehe.  I sent Smokey a request to have it on as a sticky, so we'll see how it turns out. Follwing what you were saying, we are the ambassadors and it is our job to protect others as ourselves. You know us "Americans", we'll abuse absolutely anything! (not all, just majority speaking) It doesn't help that some people are having a hard time knowing when to stop vaping though.

I agree Lithium, I was reading up on our inducing friend harmine. I think that alot people  over here are just using those wild strengths to get a high or to prove that they're a hardcore smoker. Im sure you heard of our "cool complex" over here haha. I dont mean to come off "anti" I just feel disaster approaching

We must be carefull not to let healthy motivations turn into obsessions,moderation and self control are key here.Some people may have a hard time knowing not when to stop because of the less toxic ingredients and the convenience of being able to vape where they normally couldn't smoke.Also since less is more you dont seem to have a time satisfaction as we were use to.I quickly found it was quite easy to vape the day away.With this in mind I followed some suggestions to try to mimic your smoking "rituals" this seems to help.I have only used 18mg carts and upon purchasing a second pvd used a 0 nic cart to switch to when i just want to puff.purchasing some 36mg liquid to dilute to make 18mg and using DIY VG no nic mix.There is a balance in everything and effort is rewarded exponentially.

I agree that we need to ensure that people remember not to abuse this wonderful gift.  It will be very interesting to see if Dr. Laugesen's report has anything further on dosing.  He has been quoted in several articles that you do only get 1/3 the amount of nicotine you would in a tobacco cig, but from what I have read throughout the forum, there are a lot who use a lot of nicotine.

I have determined though through all of the forums, that I am an "average" smoker.  I can make a 15ml bottle last for a month!  I always thought I was a heavy smoker.  (Not hard core, but heavy).  Apparently not!

I'm sorry Lacey but Dr Laugesen's claims of 1/3 nicotine per puff are way off the mark.  He's working from a distorted puff count.

Work your nicotine intake out in mg per day depending on how many ml you use.  You'll find that we are generally getting a lot more nicotine when vaping.

As smokers, we know that the "puff count" is off.  But what his study determined was generic dosing information.  After re-reading his findings last night, I see where his 1/3 comes from.  Yes, to us this sounds very weak, but in reference to the way he takes his "puffs" in his experiments, he is right with 1/3.

The dosing information is going to be very important for any approval.  It will be mandatory and the first question my doc asked me when I showed it to him is "What is the average dose?"  We all know that one tylenol affects one person one way, and another may need to take two, while another has no affects from it and must take asprin.

I have also asked other manufacturers about the dosing information and those calculations seem to jive with Laugesen's reports.  As a little test, by no means scientific, I took the suggested puffs which is 14, with smaller draws, and by the end, I was surely jonesing for more nic.  I know... not scientific.  But definitely not satisfied which leads me to believe, that I think a lower amount of nicotine is being absorbed if you take the "proper" puffs, which none of us do.

Here is INSTEADS suggested dosing info:

A. High = .054 mg of nicotine per puff. 14 puffs = 1 dose. .756 mg nicotine per dose.
B. Medium = .042 mg of nicotine per puff. 14 puffs = 1 dose. .588 mg nicotine per dose.
C. Low = .033 mg of nicotine per puff. 14 puffs = 1 dose. .462 mg nicotine per dose.
D. Zero

These are based on 18mg High, 14mg Medium and 11mg Low.

This topic interests me greatly as we are re-writing our manual to include dosing info which it currently does not.  So if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.  I want our manual as community consensus perfect as possible. 

Puff counts are absolutely useless for calculating dose.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/6525-draws-puffs-per-ml.html

The only decent calculation is the number of mg per ml used per day compared with mg per cig usually used.

Dr Laugesen even reckons that 1.5mg is average for a cig!

Lacey, I think putting the dosage at 18, 14, 11, zero leaves a far too big gap between 11 and zero.
The usual mg's in EU are 16, 11, 6 and zero; and some sellers offer 3 also. (Btw there are hardly any sellers in my country even offering anything over 16; and except for some real few users, that is found to be perfectly normal and acceptable... perhaps it would have been in UK and US also, if no-one had ever offered higher... something to think about, even if it's far too late to remedie that at this point.)

Katink - I am basing our stats from our manufacturer.  We also only attribute 100 puffs per RN4081.  (approximately 7 1/2 cigarettes based on our dosing info)  Not the 300 as suggested by Ruyan.  I agree that 300 seems a bit high.

Kate - I read through the entire thread.  AHHH!  What I can say is this:  In the US, the first thing that will be asked for approval is if a non-smoker were to take a puff, what would be a puff?  Then that puff would be what is determined for dosing information.  How much nicotine is in that puff.  Puff isn't what a smoker would draw, but what a non-smoker would draw.  If a non-smoker were to take a puff, how many puffs would it take to cause nicotine symptoms in a non-smoker?  Then that would be applied to a smoker and that would be the "dose". 

It is interesting that the smokers in the poll were mostly 60 puffs or less.  I did your test... I fall into the 60 range, but I also take two puffs per puff like Trog.  So is that actually 120 puffs?

Edit:  PS to katink:  It is never too late to get things right!  We are not printing our manuals but making them available online so they can be updated as e-smoking evolves.  Plus it saves a tree and I am ALL about saving a tree.

To say that an RN4081 cartridge gives 100 puffs is blatantly false, they hold around 0.3ml.  So even if your adjustment to 120 puffs per ml is correct, you still can only legitimately claim 0.3 of that total.

This is more accurate:
Super Minis (RN4081, RN4088, DSE103, etc...): About 1-3 cigs worth (20-30 puffs) They hold around 0.3ml of eliquid.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/2562-helpful-links-videos-new-user-3.html#post97433

If you're not going to do proper studies on how many ml a puff is from a cig compared with how many ml a vape is compared with how many you get with each compared with the mg of nicotine compared with how much is consumed then you're just picking figures out of the air.

The only accurate dosing information you can give without scientific studies is how much mg per ml per day is used.

There are enough myths about this already.  We're going to be ripped to shreds by antis when they test our claims.

Maybe there is some confusion here... because the 4081 is not a super mini.  I have a 4081 and a 4088 sitting in front of me and there is a huge difference in size.  To compare those two is absolutely false.  I have smoked and tested both and there is no way that a 4088 holds the same as a 4081.  The 4081 is more like the 901.

And we are not picking things out of the air.  We are going off of our manufacturers information which may well be right or wrong... but we are trying to determine what is right and what is wrong.

Also, basing dosing information off of people who are abusing nicotine is not right either.  We are getting our own testing done in hopes of clarifying the truth for our specific product.

I agree that subjective judgements and opinions of addicts are not a good way to measure doses.  That is why I said that unless scientific studies are properly carried out the only way we can measure dose is by mg per ml per day.

Lacey, I'm really sorry but I'm a bit ratty today.  Just ignore these posts if you want, I just didn't feel like staying quiet about something that might have business implications for you.  Take what you want and leave the rest

I see your point.  I do.

I have to look at this like the FDA and HPCS are going to look at this and it is per puff.  According to all of the regulations and requirements for achieving approval in some sense.